Interview with Gisela Domschke

Julia Bac (Amsterdam) and Gisela Domschke (São Paulo) via e-mail.

J: How did you get involved with this project?

G: Annette Wolfsberger and Annet Dekker invited me to collaborate on a project for Central de Cultura 2012 . We wanted to develop a mobile media lab. In the Netherlands, we established a partnership with NIMk and its program for Planet M, its brand new mobile infrastructure and laboratory for media art and digital culture. Here in Brazil we established a partnership with – mobile media arts festival – and we got funding from Fundação Telefônica.

J: What is your responsibility /tasks in this project?

G: I am the facilitator of the project here in Brazil. Together with Lucas Bambozzi from, I’m coordinating all the strands of the program – from conceptual to practical decisions.

J: How many people are working in Brazil? How are you dividing your responsibilities?

G: We are a very small team. Lucas and I share the artistic coordination of the project. We have an executive producer, Andrea Armentano, a communication assistant, Carola Gonzalez, and Lucas Gervilla, who is in charge of the making-of. From now onwards we’ll also have the collaboration of a few media artists and technologists, who will offer workshops in our mobile lab. As I mentioned before, we applied for the support of Fundação Telefônica’s Art and Technology program to be able to build the mobile lab, and this allowed the project to have a bigger scope as well. Our mobile platform will not only host artistic residencies, but will also offer practical workshops and media events. This time we are focusing on São Paulo’s outskirts, but we are also aiming to put Lamovel on the road in the future – ideas that still need to be funded though.

J: Do you talk frequently with the Brazilian artist that is now in Amsterdam?

G: Our communication is reduced to the necessary matters. I appreciate how intense is the process of a residency abroad, where our references are confronted with local ones, so we want to leave him some space to enjoy/digest this. The main thing is the exchange of experiences and knowledge sharing Pixel is having there, and I’ve been following this through the video logs he has been posting.

J: What are your expectations for the second phase of the residency? when the Dutch artist will go to Brazil.

G: Pixel and Sander have spent those last three weeks discussing conceptually how to use AR technology in order to allow new forms of exchange with people in a public space. The local context clearly strongly determines this discussion. Not only culturally speaking, but also in terms of the available technology. So it is inevitable that this second phase will entail a deep reconfiguration in the creative process.

J: How are you planning his stay?

G: Sander will stay here for 20 days only, which is a quite a short period, so we need to give a strong focus to the production of the project. The first thing is to define in which area the artists will be willing to work. We have already proposed Luz or Freguesia do O. We have also suggested the possibility of working within a more defined context, such as a public library or public hospital, but the final decision is up to the artists themselves. We have purchased a Kombi Sabari, which we are adapting to work as a mobile media lab platform. It accommodates 4 people, and will have media production and diffusion equipments in it.

J: Is there something you would like to add?

G: I believe the collaborative aspect offers a quite unique dynamics to the programme, and this practice distinguishes it from the usual artistic residencies. Also, the displacement experience creates a new relation to time and the way we perceive space. Our main aim is to explore new ways of mediating the relationship of the artist and the public in the creative process itself. This is the relevance of our program.

2nd interview with Sander 19/03/2012


Interview 2

Julia Bac and Sander Veenhof (Amsterdam)

J: You have been working with Pixel for 3 weeks already. How are you working together?

S: I think we are bringing our own backgrounds into the project. In this specific case is very helpful, we sort of swapped each other’s fascinations.

We usually meet up here (at the Nimk) and we had some Skype moments, we also installed a sketch board upstairs. It’s a very technical drawing, cause in one of the first discussions we discovered that it goes much faster if you just talk about the technical stuff. You can start at the other end, but sometimes is good to know what is the actual thing that you are creating. You have to know what it should be like. And we started this process as well.

J: What you mean is that the technique limits what you can do?

S: No, not really. But is good to know where there are choices to make. Sometimes choices arise from the technique. Some things we had in mind and we already think ahead what would be the consequences, how you can develop a user experience. In the end you have to create this technical thing and it doesn’t appear out of nowhere.

J: Is this how you usually work?

S: Yeah, there is this initial idea. You sort of envision it. Start sketching the scope, what do you want to do, and then you continue thinking on how to optimize it, how to change it a little. You develop a concept that includes a technical part and you have to jump back and forth between technique and concept.

J: In which “stage” do you see the project at this point?

S: I think it is defined. We have the basis now, except the implementation. Now comes the interesting part, which is proving that what we are creating could have impact and could be relevant and interesting enough. That’s what we have to prove right now.

J: What do you mean with the “basis”?

S: It’s the scope. We have the scope right now, which is what we want to achieve with all the requirements and the starting point. We have now something that we both feel confident that could be the right way, that in the end we’ll get to something interesting.

J: Why you decided to have two different projects?

S: I think that also has to do with the two countries and our personal different backgrounds, we kind of swapped our fascinations. I came in with a lot of experience with GPS based projects and I was inspired by Pixel’s work using marker-based AR. For Pixel, it was the other way around.

And makes sense because the QR codes projects would be really helpful in Brazil. The two countries are very different, so it makes sense to make something that its appropriate instead of making one project that can be quite a struggle to be relevant here and there, because the situation is quite different.

J: What was the most significant change that the project had since you started?

S: The most significant change was to decide to work in two things. Because the two locations are very different, makes sense to put all the ideas into two separate projects.

In the beginning we thought that maybe we could develop only one, but I think that doing two is better.

I think that the major brake through is going to come this week. You could ask the same question on Friday, because I hope we are going to have major change.

Meeting Jan Rothuizen on Wednesday will be helpful. We will have to tell him what we are doing and see if, someone that hears our idea for the first time, would understand what we are aiming.

J: You also have been discussing your project with the Nimk staff and Annet Dekker (the organizer). What was the most significant feedback you had so far?

S: I think they were all stressing the same point. We are in search of something that is not there, that doesn’t exist. But, we both strongly believe in it and we talk about it, as it already exists. With their questions they really force us to make what we are doing more precise, and ask ourselves: what is the special added value? Now we have to get the right showcases that also help us to understand what we are actually talking about.

My personal idea is that by this process we are learning a new tool. Then, getting use to the new possibilities of the things we are creating, I would also be able to take a step where we can create something that we cannot foresee yet. That’s what I hope. Because if it’s very predictable, you can ask: should you make it?

J: How could you achieve this situation? Would it come by experimenting?

S: You first do the obvious things and then in the end you get to something that is a perfect conceptual piece, I hope. But, it’s hard to get there in one go. Sometimes, you have this idea, that is brilliant from the beginning on, but sometimes you just shape the conditions by exploring further and then suddenly it’s like a puzzle, that all parts connect.

2nd interview with Pixel 12/03/2012


Interview 2

Julia Bac and Pixel (Amsterdam)

Do you believe that the fact of being here for already two weeks has influenced in the way that would normally work?

The project I am doing is together with Sander. I don’t think that the environment is influencing so much in my decision making process, but Sander’s way of work is different than mine. What is nice is that I want to experiment the way he works here and he wants to try the way we work over there. Because there is a different reality here related to the culture of mobility. Not only related to connection, but here people have effectively more access to technology. I have the impression that is more simple to target people with a project for mobile here than in Brazil.

The fact that I am visiting museums, visiting other spaces and the cultural activities that I am doing inspires me for new ideas. The experience of getting to know the city, having free time and thinking about the project in different environments, also influences the project. But, this will only be noticed ahead when we’ll have the software and when we start to add content to the software.

What is the current status of the project?

In general terms, what we want to do is already established. The basic lines of the project are ready. Now starts the phase of experimenting the project. Experimenting the possibilities of interaction, the development of a prototype.

We will see what it works and this would be kept in the first prototype of the project. I would say that this is the “prototyping experimental” phase of the project

You will develop two projects. What leaded you to do these two projects and not choose only one?

I wanted to experiment this online environment established here, develop something that would be good for this context and Sander wanted to develop something that would be good for Brazil. The first project is the “Powerpoint Walks” that is part of the proposal that Sander and me sent for the residency in Augmented Reality. The second is related to mobile technology, but is not an Augmented Reality. The second project will be developed if everything works well with the first one.

We want to present information that modifies the way people relate to the space, the information can be or not stories. We have been researching on open data, public data that we could use. But, so far we haven’t found anything that could be effectively relevant. Therefore, there is a challenge there… is something that we would like to try. But… well, Annet (one of the organizers) had already mentioned this back then, that it would be difficult to find data that would be interesting to trigger people to react with the system. We are just facing this aspect now.

Last Friday we have chosen the priorities of development. What should be done first and what comes afterwards. What are the initial priorities and what is accessory, than we continue following phase by phase.

And which are these phases?

The first phase would be to create a demo of the project. So, create a structure with the idea of the project. This demo would have the basics, the presentation of the content for the user, which in a way is an interaction. The first content would be still textual. From that point on we want to think about other types of content: graphic and with two or three dimensions, and also research more about open data. This is still experimentation. See what works and what doesn’t works. After this phase, we choose what should be kept in the project. And from that on we’ll build the content system management to enable people to collaborate in the project. After, think about how people will interact with each other using the system, create dialogs or making what is inside the system to dialogue. From stage of the development of the CSM, is already the implementation. After this we start doing the workshops.

The idea of gathering the public would be through these workshops?

Yes, in the beginning. In the workshops we would present the project and create content on the streets, we would walk around with the people on the streets. We wish to encourage people to continue to create content and spread the word about the project. From the moment of implementation of the CSM we already start to circulate and use content created by us, but this is parallel.

In Brazil you work with a team. How are you experiencing working with people from here? That you didn’t know before and also didn’t choose.

For the Jandig Project we did an open call. So, the experience of working with “strangers” happened already there, because I met people during the project. But Jandig was also an open process in which the participants were changing all the time. Some people would join and some would leave the project. In this project Sander and me have a commitment with the project. The idea of working together was a suggestion from the organizers, but me and Sander agreed to work together and share experiences, and I think both of us enjoyed this experience.

I like to work from home, and I have the impression that with Sander is the same. If we were working in different projects would be more difficult to have this exchange in the residency.

In the first interview you mentioned that you would like to disconnect a bit from Brazil, did you manage to do that?

Less than I would like to. I managed to disconnect a bit. Living in a different place is a way of disconnecting from Brazil and connecting in things here.

Do you think that you could plan and think on the proposal as much as you are doing if you were not here?

No. From there I wouldn’t have this residency experience. Also if I would have started the other way around would be much more difficult for me, having appointments and people trying to reach me. Is harder when you have an agenda. I planned this month to dedicate to the project and Sander planned for the next month, when he is going to Brazil.

In one of your videologs you mention about your process of creation…

I think that in the end I am working the way I am used to. Sander mentioned that he starts with the concept. But, the ideas are changing a lot, there is new ideas coming all the time. Some ideas we discover not to be so good and we look for what to prioritize. The work is changing, changing a lot, actually.

What would be a “not good” idea?

The idea of working with open data initially sounded a great idea and now we are facing the fact that might be not so good.

You mentioned that a few data you found were not so interesting. What would be the type of data that are not so interesting?

Show people how much the government spent building each public property, for example. How much was spent on building a bridge? This could even be part of the project, but doesn’t trigger people to interact with the project…there’s something missing. Actually, we are facing a difficulty on finding data. We talked to people working with open data in Brazil, we asked for information about which would be interesting data. But they didn’t reply. And if they didn’t reply probably is because they have difficulty in finding it. Because to make any sense, within the technological limitations existing, these data should be very specific. Related to specific areas of a city. This specificity is not easy to find and there is also a difficulty of dealing with these information.

Would you choose the same data in The Netherlands and in Brazil?

One of the things that, at least from my perspective is interesting, is a project that connects both countries. But, we still didn’t find something that would create this connection. One of the things we are considering to do is to show different perspectives of the city: I would show my perspective of Amsterdam and Sander would do the same in São Paulo. But this is our connection with the city and not of one city with the other, or one country to the other.

You presented the project to some people. What was the most interesting feedback that you had so far?

No one gave a feedback that changed completely the project. No one said: “why don’t you do it this way…”. I think they still need to see what will actually be, just explaining is not so simple. That is why we should work on the demo.

What is your goal for the last two weeks?

Develop the prototype. I think that at least have the prototype working the way we wanted. I would like to have this ready here, so we can modify the prototype there. So, the goal is to achieve a prototype in which I can have a walk through the city and put my experience in the system, but depending of the difficulties we will find during the process of work and what we will find out, we could finalize or not the prototype. Or maybe a great change would happen and we could decide to do something very different.

How this prototype would be like?

Would be to get the system to work, but fed only by Sander and me, without other people participating yet.

1st interview with Pixel 14/2/2012


Interview 1

Julia Bac (Amsterdam) and Pixel (São Paulo) via Skype

Would you explain a little bit of your project proposal for the residency?

I like to work with “collaborative projects”, where people can participate actively in the project. Initially, I sent the proposal of working on Jandig for the residency.  The organizers saw some similarities between our projects and suggested that we could combine them into one single project.

What do you mean with the term “collaborative project”?

In this context, collaborative projects are open to interference. In Jandig, the collaboration is done through the development of the project and the application. The planning and development of the project was done by people interested in the project proposal and had the will to develop it. This group of people developed the website (, the software ( and an open call for digital objects. The open call gathered approximately 40 objects. 10 of them were selected and from that were made specific AR markers to each object.

This project can be presented in different ways, depending on the interference of the public. Anyone can access the website, download and print the markers, also the software is available online (including the code). This makes it possible for the ones that are interested to download the content and create an application of the project in a specific context. The markers can be displayed anywhere. They were displayed in a few neighborhoods in São Paulo, and for example at the event Campus Party 2012, we distributed stamps, stickers and T-shirts as markers, in a way that people could choose how they could appropriate and present the project.

One time I was giving a talk about the Jandig project and there was a woman in the audience that collaborated to the project sending one artwork. She said that she liked the idea of having artworks spread in different contexts, not only in front of her computer inside her house.

Would you comment on the images that are displayed at the Jandig website?

Those images were sent through the public call and selected to be part of the project, so there was a kind of curatorship. Because every artwork has a marker, what we see on the website are the artworks and the markers.

Briefly, can you tell how technically this project works?

We developed a program that you can download and then there are “markers”, such as stamps or stickers for example, in which the AR can be accessible. Each marker is related to an artwork that was sent to us. The result is an exhibition, but in a different context, than a galley or museum, for example.

You talked for the first time with the other artist from The Netherlands. What was your first impression and what are your expectations for working together?

I think I will learn a lot working together with Sander. It is also a chance to get to know a different culture and elaborate a project in another country, this is something important for me right now. When we spoke, it was nice to know what he was working on and also the fact that I developed a AR project in which people can download the software before accessing the AR. The way Sander work you need to have Internet access, this is a significant technical difference between our projects. Now we are going to elaborate something combining these two ideas and we will try to create something together.

Did you know about Sander’s work before this residency project?

When I was researching for the Jandig project I saw a guerilla action using AR at the Moma. I didn’t know Sander was part of that project, but when I was talking to Gisela, (one of the organizers of this residency project in Brazil), she told me that he was part of it and I thought was an interesting coincidence.

How come you started to be interested in Augmented Reality?

What triggers me is the fact that augmented reality can be taken to different places, not just inside your house on the computer screen, but on the streets, or anywhere.

My first work with AR was using the game PONG from the 70s and I enjoyed to work with that and decided to explore more.

What are your plans now, before you arrive in The Netherlands?

I think that I will still have a talk with Sander before I leave to The Netherlands. But I think I will start working more intensively when I arrive, on the 28th of February. But for now I am really anxious in going to The Netherlands and also try to be away from all the things I am involved here in Brazil, will be a great challenge. I will try to be really “disconnect” so I can focus on my work over there.

1st interview with Sander Veenhof 06/02/2012


Interview 1

Julia Bac and Sander Veenhof (Amsterdam) via Skype

Could you explain briefly about your AR proposal for this residency project?

Originally I was thinking of creating a sort of system that the pubic could use if they could do a bit of programming, but then they would have to build everything and learn everything. There would be some components ready to be used in a very easy way, but now I think that maybe it should be even easier. We should find use cases that are applicable to the actual need of people. If you want to tell a story then we should do a system that you can do story telling. I think it’s kind of difficult to get people to start with programming.

You talked for the first time with Pixel, the Brazilian artist. What was your first impression and what are your expectations for working together?

Was good to get to know each other and the state of developments that we are involved with. There is a difference in the situation in Brazil and the Netherlands. In Brazil there is not many people with smart phones with Internet connection and in The Netherlands there is a lot of people with it. This is an important difference to understand who is our audience. If we are thinking to do one project we don’t want to make something too complex for Brazil, but we also need to think that in The Netherlands people have access with the smart phone.

Can you explain about the individual “state of developments” that you mentioned?

Pixel is using an open system and I am using another technology.

I am using applications like Layar and Junaio, which for me is also kind of an open technology. These are the two applications that you can use to make Augmented Reality easily.

Maybe we can think of not just developing a whole new system, but to see what Layer and Junaio can offer.

So, your first intention changed a bit a after talking to Pixel…

Well, when you start from scratch you can do it differently than when there is already a lot developed, and goes to a certain direction, so you can make use of that too.

What did change related to your proposal after your talk with Pixel?

Now I think it would be good to take one step back and think what is our purpose, what we want to make. Because Pixel was doing exhibitions, letting people view AR based on a marker that you put somewhere. But now we need to think what we are going to bring to people.

Personally, what I like is that this virtual space is everywhere, the whole world is now having a parallel universe, that it is so flexible and so open to anyone, that can have  endless amount of stories. So, it would be good to make a system that would be interesting for anyone who has a story to tell. Let people tell the stories at the location where they are happening. I think that the work of Pixel is more visual oriented and I was thinking to add texts to it. Have a textual annotation of the streets. We could go to the direction of documenting or story telling. If it’s story telling, as fiction you have the opportunity to include characters, the story could have multiple ends and your main character could make choices. If you are on the streets and you chose left for example, you lead the story to a certain direction. We can either ask people on the streets to tell their story or ask for a writer to create them.

One of the most important things to do first is that we have a basic idea of what we can offer and now is time to find the right use of it. Find good cases where people can use it. Maybe in Brazil we can get in touch with people that has a story to tell. Then would be a “back and forth” way of developing it, because they can say they want to do this or that and then we would have to change the system a little bit.

You are considering now to combine Pixel’s technique, using the markers with your idea. Does the use of a marker change a lot about your first idea of the work?

Well, I think that if you don’t use the markers you are really accessing the whole world, you can add the stories anywhere theoretically. But then the people on the streets don’t know of the presence of the AR. They need to know about it and then the sticker can be useful. It’s a different usage but maybe the two can be combined.

Do you think that you would restrict the public you are reaching in Brazil, based on the fact that most of the people there don’t have access to Internet connection in their phones?

What I like about this reality is that it will continue to be there afterwards, even if you can’t see it. If one person is seeing it at one time, is a fact that it’s there even after the things remain at the location, so maybe afterwards these people will have the phone and will access it. But, in the beginning maybe we would need some of these devices for those people that don’t have the phones yet.

What are your expectations at this moment ?

Its good to see the developments on the other part of the world. And its good to check if the things I am creating are valuable in other parts of the world too.

I will be starting with some dialog with him when he is here to really think about the implementations, not the technical part but more the use case part. Before that time we can already think of the technical things, prepare ourselves a little. We still need to decide a few things. I think there will be still a few calls on skype to see how things are going before he comes.

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